Poll on Australian Live Animal Export

[Magda]

Hey Daughter of a farmer who doesn't farm any more. You are a hypocrite. How can you say you love animals when you subject them to the ghastly and always long, torturous and tedious death? Distressing for the "Slaughterer" Have you ever met any of these individuals? Most abattoirs in Australia murder in halal style and all death houses have no respect for their terrified victim. You call yourself a "farmer"? The correct title should be "Flesh Trader". I have been a Vegetarian then Vegan for over fifty years and get my source of protein from nonviolent sources. Work hard as a farmer? Try making your living in the city particularly with very little study as most farmers have. You look after your animals to make money from them, not because you love them. How dare you use the word love? In the words of a decent and humane person "The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men."
— Leonardo da Vinci

[Export News Tasmania]

Tankgirl, while we appreciate your input, we make the point that now this industry has its hand out to the taxpayer yet again because it cannot deal with a change in government policy. Most of the people you cite here have jobs which would continue without the export factor.

The meat industry received no handouts when you started this trade, no labour market adjustment, yet the farmers expect compensation - AND they want their disgusting trade back - even after what they cannot fail to have seen in countless investigations in all importing countries. Does that not tell you something?

The meat workers receeived nothing except unemployment. Satellite businesses in towns where meat processing was the only, or the major industry and employer, were further casualties, and also received no handouts. So we fail to see why people who have made fortunes in animal abuse over decades, using a massive proportion of OUR tax dollars, should expect to be treated differently.

As for all farmers being cruel, no-one has said any such thing, Farmers who knowingly expose their animals to this cruelty, however, which we have seen too many times for it to be remotely considered 'isolated incidents' are entirely another matter. Perhaps you should look for the document at this site 'A disaster by any other name'. It outlines exactly the sort of ships used in this trade, the vast majority being about 30 years old and former oil tankers, vehicle trainsporters and the like. There are very few 'new', 'purpose built' vessels in this trade, and all are registered in flag of convenience ports where standards are considerably lower, and manned by third world crews. That is why animals die on them.

Australian maritime workers sre not employed on these ships.

The animals who survive the journeys are the really umfortunate ones though. They are handed over to savages who, as shown in multiple lots of footage we have seen, clearly enjoy torturing them. Farmers who send them cannot fail to know this, and if they claim otherwise, they are at best disingenuous and at worst negligent. Please don't tell us they 'care for their animals'.

They only care about how fast they can get them back into the hellholes that are the importing countries as soon as possible. The way the people in these countries treat each other, particularly women, is a salutory lesson - yet still Australia sends them defenceless animals. If anyone has failed the farming sector, it is your own Meat and Livestock Australia, and it is MLA that you should be blaming for what you apparently believe is a crisis, not decent Australians who are disgusted, outraged and ashamed to be Australian because of this industry.

[tankgirl]

My concern regarding this program being propaganda, is that it did not provide a balanced view and focused solely on the horror. If it had truly wanted to understand the situation, it would have provided for all sides of the story.

I think you will find if you investigate this further, that although MLA and LiveCorp did receive a report, the general industry, thecattle producers, were not each issued with a copy of this report, and because the majority of them, do not travel with each load to see them slaughtered, were unaware. Many producers are outraged buy the cruelty, and I have previously stated that I find it sickening to see animals mistreated.

I have never said that suffering did not occur, however I am saying that perhaps we have not been shown all there is to know. I am pleased that you have indeed seen animals, I made this statement because many on this forum seem to think that farmers are as a whole, cruel and nasty to their animals and this is concerning and shows a general ignorance of many (but perhaps not all) people who raise animals. I grew up on a farm and must admit that I rarely saw animals mistreated, this includes those that were ultimately for food.

I understand that cows are sentient beings. This is not something I would dispute. However, I find this difficult to explain to someone not ready to accept another point of view, and convinced that all farmers are heartless and mistreat animals. When farmers talk of producing, this means they grow food, be it lettuce, beans, cows or sheep. They tend the lettuce, beans, cows or sheep, they provide nutrients and water so they grow. They treat them for pests, diseases and illnesses. Many farmers practice selective breeding, choosing to replant seeds from the beans that grow the biggest best beans, choosing to breed from the cows that bear the healthiest calves that grow into the best animals. When farmers talk of producing this is what they mean. For a  farmer, beans, cattle, sheep or lettuce are what that they grow that earns them money. In your local plant nursery plants that the nursery operator has grown and are sitting on the shelves growing bigger while waiting to be sold would be referred to as stock. This is in effect and accounting term. The use of these words does not show an indifference to the animals’ treatment. In fact, the farmer has put a lot of effort into treating the animal well so that it grows into a fine animal.  It is a reference to the fact that the farmer is in a business and that business produces something, and the something that is held prior to being sold is the stock. However, if you really, truly believe it is indifference, then perhaps you really do need to go and spend some time with farmers. Perhaps you too could try doing this with an open mind.

I am fail to understand why the loss of jobs in the Australian abattoirs is more important than the loss of farmers. Yes, it is terrible when someone loses their livelihood. It’s devastating when you lose you job, I think most of us have experienced it. But why are we concerned about the jobs of meat workers, over the jobs of farmers? I see no difference in $$’s for meat workers and $$’s for farmers. Are they not all equal? Without the farmers, there will be no jobs for any meat workers. I never understand why meat workers stand against farmers, it is like people in the hospitality industry protesting against serving customers.

Hopefully the cattle are in feedlots, and not on the trucks, however if they remain for a few more weeks, I believe they will have grown too big to be sold as live export, Indonesia only takes animals of a certain size, and they will be too small to be sold to our abattoirs. What becomes of these animals then? 

In my experience, farmers do not get many freebies. We are not living the USA or the EU where farmers are heavily subsidized and treated as an endangered species. Despite your suggestion otherwise, farmers in Australia battle with drought and floods, things that they have no control over and things that do not affect many city based businesses. When was the last time you supported a farmer?

This is not about supporting a businessperson in tough times. This is about taking a market away without proper and complete consultation and reducing an industry to chaos. Its not just the farmers who are affected, it’s the welfare of the animals both on the farm and waiting for export, trucking companies and their employees, the indigenous workers, their families, helicopter pilots, livestock suppliers, farm machinery businesses, boarding schools, small rural towns and many more.  The government had a knee jerk reaction to pressure and my understanding is that they did not fully investigate the matter, did not consult with states, the export industry, the farmers or the Indonesians. I also believe that the world generally, does not view Australia as cruel, but it certainly views the practices of the abattoirs in the 4 Corners footage as cruel, and the Australian governments reaction to this as poorly handled.

[WA Export News]

By the way, if you want to learn about propaganda, then we suggest you look to your own industry.

They are absolute masters at their chosen art.

[WA Export News]

We will address each point as follows:

The expose seen on 4 Corners was in part gathered by Animals Australia. Their evidence of atrocities upon our cattle was presented, investigated and substantiated by 4 Corners...a totally independent media source. Given what we all saw, and accept- including the vast majority of industry who fully agreed it as being blatant and brutal torture, it is down right stupid to even contemplate suggesting it is propaganda.

MLA and we are led to believe LiveCorp have to our knowledge admitted that they knew..and they failed to stop it. If that is not an indictment upon what this industry stands for...well what is?


If indeed you are not at every kill, then you cannot say that suffering does not occur. 4 Corners visited a number of slaughterhouses in Indonesia - probably more than you have. It is then reasonable to accept that they have a hell of a lot more experience than you. It is also condescending to infer that many who read this forum have not seen a cow, a horse or a chicken. That statement is ridiculous to say the least. We are all to aware of exactly how these creatures are treated, transported and slaughtered in order to be served on a plate. However, what happens to animals in Aust isn't the issue- it is the horrific treatment of our cattle in Indonesia that is the focus.

You say you believe farmers, and dare we say it, that is the problem. There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see. If you refuse to see the cruelty and suffering of the cattle then you have no business being involved in farming. Might we add that given your industry mates accept the 4 Corners footage as gross cruelty, you would be in a minute minority for refusing to accept its validity.  Be sure to understand we have our eyes wide open to the realities of live export.

The offence caused by the words "stock" and "produce" is because the animals are sentient beings. Your retort failed to address this point. In the context of this discussion, it is irrelevant how long these creatures have been exploited by humans. What is relevant is the use of these words and the story they tell- one of indifference to the animal. It is that culture of indifference which permeates the whole of the industry. And the culture of indifference results in people not seeing the suffering for what it is. Unacceptable

The live export trade has all but destroyed the Australian slaughter industry. Over 40000 jobs have been lost- ask the meat workers union who also oppose live export. If the farming industry had not been so keen to grab every cent from every animal- fit or not, and had they supported our slaughter industry then perhaps the cattle would not have had to ensure such horrendous suffering. But that for a farmer is irrelevant. We read this all the time in articles online The bottom line for the industry is $$.  What always matters is the $$.

It is clear the industry because of the continual mismanagement of the handling of animals overseas, their inability to tell fact from fiction and their ability to turn a blind eye to cruelty are to blame for this travesty. Solving the probelm they have created is not the responsibility of the rest of Australia.  We are telling people like you that what happens to our sheep, goats and cattle is totally unacceptable.

The animals in both Broome and Darwin will not be on trucks- or at least should not be- especially if the industry cares about their welfare. And if they still are, then more proof the industry doesn't give a shit. The animal welfare law is clear in WA..and they industry should bear that in mind.

Our sources tell us the cattle are for the most part still in the feedlots.

If a person wishes to latch onto a business because trade is prosperous, they must also ensure they take precautions to insulate themselves when times get tough.

Farmers always have a hand out for a freebie- and the freebie is always supplied- unwillingly by the city person.  It is not my responsibility to support a businessperson when the tough times roll along. Perhaps if the pastoralists weren't so greedy and stopped breeding so many animals they wouldn't be in this position.

We strongly suggest you take off the rose coloured glasses and see the trade for what it causes. No matter you want to believe; what the industry tells you- the proof is in the footage shown on 4 Corners. The world has seen it..and Australia looks to be the cruel nation it is..all thanks to Australian live trade.

[Export News Tasmania]

How many investigations, showing the same atrocities, do there need to be? Having spent years around saleyards watching ill, crippled and dying animals transported there, sold, and transported onwards regardless of their pain and suffering (and I have prosecuted them, in one instance for starving 35 sheep for 9 days), it is something of a leap to expect us to believe that farmers or indeed any of these animal 'industries' 'care' for their animals. Daily we see four deck transporters packed so tighly with animals you can clearly see that they are thrown on top of one another.
You only have to read one of the latest posts quoting a goat 'producer' (I thought animals themselves were the producers, but I guess that's semantic) who says he 'doesn't know'; how the animals he exports are killed. And for those who didn't know, that's the way they like it. The most culpable entity in this, Meat and Livestock Australia, will now have to provide for the animals saved from the Indonesian fate. And information from the Australasian Meat Industry Employees Union directly contradicts your assertions.
You people claim to be 'in business'. Other businesses in this country have to operate within ethical and moral stanards and in compliance with a multiplicity of regulations and government policies and have to deal with changes in those policies. Why is it that farmers think they are different? They have their hands out when there's drought, and they have their hands out when it rains. And we taxpayers are continually bailing them out. Other businesses are left to fold, without constant government handouts. Enough. This trade has got away with far too much for FAR TOO LONG, now it will end. Deal with it. We manage to live healthy, productive lives without exploiting animals. We have some chickens who lived lives of hell on battery farms who are here for the rest of their lives. And my brain got me through two post-graduate degrees without meat.

[tankgirl]

It is dissapointing that you do not investigate this matter futher and are happy to accept the propaganda you saw on the television as the truth and the only truth and continue to regurgitate the misinformation.

No I cannot be at every kill, like many of you I have a full time job in the city. However, I have seen animals slaughtered because I believe if you eat meat, you must understand how it gets to your table. Many of you would have never seen a cow, a horse or a chicken, let alone seen how it gets to your table. This is part of the problem. 

Yes I believe the farmers, I've been one. No, not all are caring and respectful of their animals, but neither are all city people caring and respectful of their cats, and dogs.

To those of you offended by the words "stock" and "produce", here's a history lesson. Cattle have been domesticated for many thousands of years. And as heartless as this might sound to you they were domesticated so that people could eat them. And without protein from meat, we would not be human, our brains would not have developed to what we now have. We would still be in trees.

And as for the slaughter industry here If you want in Australia, the abbatoirs in Townsville cannot handle the meat they are processing, their chillers cannot cool it fast enough and their are massive backlogs of cattle booked in to be slaughtered, that they keep deferring.

And what are you doing about the animals stuck in yards, stuck on trucks, who were destined for live export but are now in limbo. Are you even aware of thier existence? Do you care for their welfare? What becomes of them now?

This link has some letters from real farmers, people who have been effected and who care about their animals - http://justgroundsonline.com/forum/topics/my-story-the-ripple-effect

[WA Export News]

Bulya. You miss the point. The issue of live export is not about humans. It is about cruelty and suffering to Australian animals. And Australian animals suffer in the Middle East and in Indonesia.

It must be noted that the live export trade has destroyed over 40000 jobs within the slaughter industry here in AU.

Australia does not need live export.

[bulya]

Banning the live export has and will do nothing for animal and human welfare issues in Indonesia, all has done is created a animal and human welfare issues in Australia.
Why don't we ban all trade with China as they do not have the Australian work, Health and safety standards.
Ban trade with Japan they are hunting the whales again.

[Export News Tasmania]

It is sad indeed when farmers believe the propaganda touted by the live export trade. Seven investigations in the Middle East, and now this one in Indonesia, cannot all be wrong. The inherent problem is evidenced by your terminology, tankgirl - 'stock' and 'produce' are terms that should never be applied to animals, who feel hunger, thirst, fear, pain, and lonelieness. MLA's response is 'we need to do more training'. They only ever considered training at all because they were exposed for the liars they are about 'improving animal welfare' in these Godforsaken countries (you only have to consider what they do to their women, for God's sake). Many of us survive and live healthy lives without killing and exploiting these sentient creatures. And no-one cared when 40,000 meat workers lost THEIR livelihoods when you people got greedy and got into this evil trade three decades or more ago. And let's get this straight ... these embodiments of greed and animal abuse now want COMPENSATION from the taxpayers (as if we haven't propped them up for long enough) AND they want their animal abuse back? And we should trust you people that you could ever get it right? We think not.

[born_for_freedom]

Hey tank girl. Most people work bloody hard in their job..so why should an animal farmer expect special attention?

Have a read of the words you use because they say a lot about how someone really feels. You say 'produce'. Since when is are live sentient beings 'produce'?

Since when are live sentient beings 'stock'. Stock is what goes onto the shelf at the supermarket.

I realise you think you understand animal welfare, but really one must be objective in order to understand good welfare and I do not for one minute believe you can be.

[WA Export News]

Thanks for you views tankgirl.

In order to make claims believable one needs to substiante the claims. If you want to make statements such as "What we saw on the TV was very selective. In many cases, only a small percentage of cattle ARE treated like that, which is still wrong, but I have been told, by people in the industry, that we were only shown the horror.", then you should be able to substantiate it.

Were you at every slaughter?  No. You are simply regurgitating what the industry says. Havent they led all a merry dance about what really goes in in Indonesia? Why the hell would you believe what the industry had to say for goodness sake when they have not been totally up front.

And you suggest that all farmers care about their animals. So you are on every farm all of the time?

No didnt think so. Take a trip to a saleyard and see the animals so called 'caring farmers' send in for sale. Animals that cannot even stand up.


We appreciate your contribution but those involved within this industry have every reaponsibility and duty of care to ensure that NO animal endures what our Australian animals endured.
 

[tankgirl]

As the daughter of a farmer, who no longer lives on the farm because it is just so damned hard to make a living these days, I am appalled that some of you think the farmers of Australia do not consider animal welfare or sustainability and only care about a quick dollar. Let me tell you..  there are no 'quick dollars' in the farming industry. I would like to make a number of points:

Farmers are driven by sustainability. Unlike many people who no nothing of the land, many farmers understand that in order to get the best from their animals, they must look after them. They must also look after their land.  Their future livelihood, and I mean livelihood, not profits, because many farmers live hand to mouth, depends on their stewardship of the land.

Farming is a highly regulated industry. There are rules about the chemicals, (if any) that they use, there are rules about how they must maintain the land, if and how they can clear trees to put in fences and dams, there are rules about how they truck cattle, there are rules about the protection of waterways. In Queensland the State Government has recently brought in more rules about the sustainability of farms, because they blame farmers for the deterioration of the Great Barrier Reef. There are many other regulations that I am not even aware of because I no longer work on my family's farm. Farmers are suffering from regulation fatigue and that is why many of them have given up speaking out, and you will not hear the voices of the majority of farmers on this issue. They are tired, and they are busy tending to their animals and their farms.

Farmers love their animals, if you didn't love them, you could never live that lifestyle.  Farming requires so much hard work and heartache. Animals require so much hard work to thrive and in times of drought, or flood, so much more work just to survive. Farmers don’t go home at 5:00pm, kick back and forget about it all. When you work on a farm, you live it, it’s your everything. Animals need food and water, they need inoculating for illnesses and diseases, treating for ticks and flies, when you are not doing that, you are repairing fences, equipment and yards, maintaining waterways, caring for the land, eradicating pest weeds, and feral animals. So don’t think that after all that hard work, farmers like seeing their animals treated badly.  Moreover, it is sickening for myself and many people I know from farms, to see animals treated badly, this includes, cows, sheep, dogs, cats, and our native animals.

Farmers have a limited market for their produce. Abattoirs in Australia were very nearly a monopoly industry before the live export trade started up. My family sold and still sells their cattle to our local abattoir, however the only other market available to them prior to the live export trade was the sale yards, where eventually they end up at an abattoir anyway. Many cattle that are sold to the live export trade are unsuitable for our fussy Australian palette. We don’t like eating the tough beef from northern Australia. And many cattle sold to the live export trade are smaller and lighter than the abattoirs’ will accept. The live export trade provides farmers with an additional market place where they can derive some income from. This is not to say we do not need to support our own abattoirs, however, without the live export trade, many farmers will be captive to the abattoirs once again and without any bargaining power. Without competition, our abattoirs will become a near monopoly industry again.

Many people eat meat. I see many of you dedicated vegetarians complaining about this, however, like it or not, meat is a source of protein for billions of people. Unfortunately, to eat meat, an animal must be slaughtered. It’s not like picking broccoli or lettuce, where you snap of leaves and you see no effects. It’s yukky, and its messy and its bloody, and can be very distressing for the slaughterer. There is nothing nice about killing something, no matter how humanely you do it. Personally, I think that you should know how your food gets on your plate, if you eat meat, of any sort, beef, pork, chicken, fish, you need to understand that an animal must die. Our society is very removed from the realities of where our food and consumables come from.

What we saw on the TV was very selective. In many cases, only a small percentage of cattle ARE treated like that, which is still wrong, but I have been told, by people in the industry, that we were only shown the horror.

Scooter, I would suggest to people like yourself, who are concerned for the welfare of the cattle, to stop reading Senate reports. We all know the Government is out of touch with the realities of the industry. If you really want to make a difference and if you are so passionate about the welfare of the animals, get yourself a job on a farm. Learn about the industry. Get yourself a job on a live export boat, teach others to treat our animals with the dignity they deserve. Go work in an abattoir both in Australia and in Indonesia. Find out how to slaughter our animals in a cruelty free manner. Stopping the live export trade is not the answer as it destroys economy’s, livelihoods, and will reduce many people and animals in both Australia and Indonesia to starvation. Getting people like yourself, who care about animal welfare, involved, is the answer.  If you are that passionate and you really care about our animals, instead of name calling and complaining, protesting and jumping up and down, become actively and constructively involved in the industry, become a farmer, or a meat worker, or get involved in the live export trade. Make a difference by being constructive.

[Magda]

Hey Rocky, Why don't you view film and video regarding the subject of live export and the abuse, torture and slow deaths  to animals in the flesh trading you obviously support? If you're only half brained you would see this shouldn't happen. I say you have an absence of reason.

[WA Export News]

Well said borga.

Part of the issue is that farmers demand to have a choice of markets to which they can sell the animals and make their money. Frankly, it is clear they dont give a toss about the suffering their animals endure and this makes it difficult to inject the concept of 'human decency' into the debate.

If farmers did care, they would refuse to send their animals on what can only be described as a nightmare journey.