Live Export Shame

All News Updates & Public Comment => Live Export News Updates => : WA Export Info November 18, 2006, 09:49:44 AM

: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: WA Export Info November 18, 2006, 09:49:44 AM
Australia should discontinue the Live Animal Export trade to other countries on ethical and compassionate grounds alone.
 
However, discontinuing the Live Animal Export trade would also benefit Australian abattoirs; many Australian abattoirs have 'Halal' certification and would welcome the chance to re-build the chilled carcass trade that has been decimated by the Live Animal Export trade. It would also restore many other rural jobs that have been lost; approximately twice as many jobs have disappeared from closed Australian abattoirs and associated business' as have supposedly been 'created' by the live export industry.

Please note: you must register as a member before you can vote on poll.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Export News Tasmania November 19, 2006, 07:17:14 PM
We all know that the live exporting farmers had no worries about the disappearing local processing sector, or the jobs of meatworkers as long as they got a few extra dollars per head for animals. We know too that they are excellent at turning a blind eye to the shocking cruelty the animals they send face. Now, they have been caught by the drought, and there is insufficient processing capacity. What goes around comes around! Don't throw them any more handouts, because this proves that they cannot manage their businesses like everyone else has to.
: Why is it necessary to register in order to vote in a poll
: WA Export Info November 20, 2006, 12:56:53 AM
Technical Issue:

Q - Why is it necessary to register in order to vote in a poll

A -  The main reason we don't allow guest voting is that there is absolutely no way to prevent a guest from voting multiple times in the same poll, and it would also allow members to vote multiple times in the same poll (ie they vote once as a member, then logout and vote a bunch more times as a guest). Even if we tried, there's always a way to cheat in a poll - mainly by logging into another computer and voting again.

Cookies - probably the best method, but it's extremely easy to delete cookies, and cookies are not cross-browser compatible, so switching to another browser would allow them to vote again.

Session - as soon as they close their browser, browse away from the forum for a while or switch to a different browser, they'll have a different session ID.

IP - not reliable at all. Dialup users don't have the same IP very often, and even if you've got broadband internet, it's still pretty easy to change your IP

In all three of those situations, a guest can simply go to a different computer to vote again.

It wouldn't be fair to anyone.....so our forum requires registration as a means of tracking users, and thus keeping the vote as fair as possible for all users.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: rocky January 17, 2007, 01:48:54 PM
With regards to live export, people get to only one side of it, they ant getting the full story or full picture. Its bad press, and people shouldnt judge on what they hear on the news.
Yes i was involed in the live exprt trade for four years. I will be returning back to the job in a few months.
Yes i will the first to adment, that things go wrong in the trade, but not very offten. I have done 20 trips to the middle east, on both ship and cattle boats As a stock men. 19 trips went very well, 1 trip ended up well, but could have ended in diaster. But what saved it, was the good work by myself. the boat crew, and the export company in aussie.

I would like to make a comment about what one other person has wrote, about rebuilding the chilled carcase trade, and how it would create jobs in the rural ares.
Ok close the live exprt trade tomorrow, what happens, you have job lossies,
about 9000 alone involed with the trade. But wait there is more, truck drives miss out, they miss out, shears miss out, feed lot staff miss out, the office girls miss out, poeple who grow hay, they miss out. This is only a small number off people, think on a bigger scale, the boat crew on the ships, they miss out, and for those guys its the only thing they know how, how are you going to tell there familys back home that they can eat because Dad hasnt got a job.

The big people who miss out is the farmers there selfs. If live export closed down, the price of beef and mutton per kg to the farm would go down. Meat compaines would have a price and thats it. To keep meat compaines honest you need compantion.
plus live export can take a lagre number of stock of a farmers place, which is good for the farmer, if things are drying up and cant feed his stock.
Abbattiors can only kill a  number of stock per day, so if you have 60 famers wanting to sell stock that week, then they have to wait for space to come up.

Live stock die on ships, there is no hiding that. But there would be more stock deaths on farms, people just dont get to see it, with the bush and all that. Bush fires kill large number of live stock.

Abbattiors only kill fat stock. so if we are in a drought, and there is no feed, how do we fatten live stock.
Live export, buy lighter stock, for the fact that other the next 3 weeks, they have a boat trip. sheep which are fat, dont trave on boats, it to hot and they die.
Light stock get power feed on ships. there is feed 24 hours a day for them. So with in 3 weeks on a ship they should and do walk off in prime condtions.

So should we stop the trade....
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: WA Export Info January 17, 2007, 02:51:12 PM
Rocky - you miss the point; we're talking about Animal Welfare, as it affects the animal, not how it affects the farmers profitiability.
 
What you appear to be saying is that the CRUELTY, ABUSE & NEGLECT is excusable because jobs are at stake; and as animals also die on the farm and in abattoirs, what difference does more suffering on a ship make......there's just no compassion is there, no thought of any animals individual health and welfare?

As for presenting one side of the story; our site is filled with information from all areas of the Industry itself and the government that backs this uneconomic, vile trade. We're looking at the real 'big picture', not just a insular view from within the industry.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: born_for_freedom January 18, 2007, 12:24:48 AM
Hey Rocky, think you have been listening to the industry too much. The live export trade does not support 9000 jobs. Thats pure unadulterated bullshit. The trade supports a little over 3000 jobs and most of those would remain even if the trade closed down. They got the figure 9000 by adding in people like the lady who cleans the dunny at the corner deli near the highway where five trucks pass every fortnight!

The real losers in the job stakes were the men and women who used to work in the slaughterhouses around the nation. Gradually over the years slaughterhouses have closed and rural families have lost their incomes - the breadwinners have buggered off to find other work and that has now resulted in a lack of workers in these killing sheds when the industry is desperate for them.

Farmers are essentially short term money makers- they are not interested in long term viability or strategies nor are they interested in animal welfare especially if it creates an impost upon their money making business. Animal welfare is a gimmick- a buzz word, a catchphase farmers use to placate city folk into thinking farmers give a shit about the animals. 

Heres an example of just how much regard farmers have for animals: Farmers call the animals they use 'livestock'. Know what 'stock' is?  It is an 'inanimate object; an object with no feelings or thought processes. Stock does not suffer nor is not alive. A sack of grain is STOCK! A can of baked beans is STOCK!

Animals are not stock. Animals feel pain and suffer just like you do Rocky. They think and are just as capable as you at feeling.  The word livestock is used to negate the fact they feel and in doing so diminishes the animals' sentience, their ability to feel or be important.

The reality is this live trade business has been built on an unethical and immoral activity and there is no way anyone can justify sending animals on ships to suffer brutal treatment by people overseas.

Besides the transfer of disease which I believe happens regularly with live shipping of animals, the animals suffer terribly.

There is no suggestion that this trade be stopped immediately but it should be phased out ASAP.and the slaughterhouses reopened to enable AUSTRALIANS to get their jobs back. You do know that the reason why Arabs like live is because it provides jobs for their people-- feel good that you support Middle Eastern people and not your own? The trade gives money to importers/exporters and creates work.

Actually farmers have been suckered into thinking they have the best competition can offer but in reality live trade has for a long time been taking down the prices paid for animals because they are the only ones buying. They created a competitive market-cornered it by eradicating their competition only to monopolize the prices.  Things are changing it seems, slaughterhouses are coming back and there is regained optimism in setting up new slaughterhouses in Aust-about bloody time.

The only ones to really benefit live trade are the bloody greedy exporters..and I think you know it too.



 
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: rocky January 19, 2007, 10:03:49 AM
Thanks for the reply. What you guys are saying, there is some truth in it.
I have been involed with the trade for 4 years. Since that time, i have seen the tade clean its act up, still long way to go.
Im not missing the point about animail welfare, or the abuse and so on.
Days have gone on the ships, where they loaded them to over flowning, tight pins, pour ventalion. I have seen first hand what goes on.
I worked on one boat, for 9 trips, yes when i first started on it, it was running at a death rata 0f 1.1%. Keys reason why it was so high, it was over loaded, sheep were loaded in the wrong areas, of the ship.
We worked hard on that ship. The exporter, the Caption and myself.
Now that ship runs at a death rate of .1   
I should not be telling people these numbers, but the fact of the matter is, the export trade has cleaned its act up alot. That has alot to do with the people working in the trade.
First and the most important thing is ANIMAL WELFARE. I found on one of my trips, a boat crew member miss treating a animal, I told the caption, next port we got to, that crew member was sacked from the company.
The point im trying to make here, cruelty and abuse is not what the expot trade is about.
How can you guys make a comment on something you havnt seen first hand.
The work that goes into pe shipping, the plan of load a ship, the hours, myself, and every over stockman which has sailed on these ships have done. For me its not bout the money, its the fact of watching fat sheep and cattle walking off the ship at the other end.

weather its 3000 or 9000 jobs been loss, still a large number of people out of work.
The lack of men and woman in killing houses has nothing to do with the export trade, the fact of the matter is working in a killing house is hard work, and the fact is people now a days hate hard work.

Born_for_freedom, im guessing you are a ex meet worker.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: WA Export News January 20, 2007, 12:26:46 PM
Hello Rocky, great to see replies coming from the industry.

The 'improvements' you have mentioned have all been instigated by outside the industry not by the industry themselves. Animal welfare have initiated changes..

There are export standards within Australia which must be adhered to as they are mandatory. This covers animals from farm to destination. Sadly there is little to no policing and enforcement which means effectively the trade is self regulating and no matter how hard many try within the industry to reduce or even stop cruelty this trade attracts people who in reality don't care about the animals.

When you have an attitude that animals are merely 'stock' a commodity to be traded in, then you will have people who think 'its only a sheep' (or cow or pig etc), and that attitude permeates throughout the trade. This then gives rise to beatings, hitting, kicking, throwing or leaving animals to die because - well hey they're only a sheep!

We know there are many animal groups such as Animals Australia, Animals' Angels, PACAT, Animal Liberation and the like who lobby, expose realities to the public, campaign or work actively within the trade to change attitudes, make improvements or seek to enforce the industry's own laws and regulations.

These groups bring the truth and reality of live trade to the public and one or two of these groups have initiated ALL the improvements you see in the live trade today. So if it weren't for animal welfare groups live export would have a far worse death rate than before.   It is a false claim that the industry initiates welfare change- they would say that- they will not admit someone or a group made them do it!

You talk about death rates in percentage- how about you stop negating the individual animals by reducing them to a percentage and talk about their suffering before they died. See thats part of the problem. The death rates are just that numbers and do not reflect the pain, stress, distress, suffering these animals went through BEFORE they died, nor do these numbers recognize the tremendous suffering of those who survive.

And so how do you account for the suffering of the animals?  It is been agreed within the OIE (World Health for Animals), animal welfare/rights groups world wide and and most of industry that transport is the greatest reason for stress in animals. They suffer the most when transported both short and long distance than any other phase in the export chain (not including subsequent landing and treatment in the destination country).  And this doesnt preclude transport for domestic use. We regularly witness sheep piled on top of one another, sheep with no where to stand so have dropped down only to be trampled upon. We have witnessed sheep with legs and heads stuck outside trucks because they cannot pull their body parts into the trucks due to the sheer pressure of numbers inside the trucks. You cannot tell us that the industry cares about the animals- it is really about the money with animal welfare thrown in as a side measure in order to satisfy public pressure and keep the trade afloat.

Given the stress which heightens any probability of disease transfer and the suffering of the animals do you think the measurement we currently use of deaths is an accurate portrayal of the suffering endured?

Further, the industry does itself no favours by preventing accountability and transparency to the public. The wall of Govt protection is such that given the public taxpayer support to the tune of millions, they have a right to know EXACTLY what happens aboard a ship yet we are prevented from doing so.  As are the animal welfare groups. We believe the public is not taken in by industry players claiming to be independent spectators and or assessors in animal welfare. After all they have another agenda. If you want truly independent assessment then take on board animal welfare advocates.

More over, the loss of jobs is important especially to the 18000 or so forced out of work when slaughterhouses shut down. The trade in fact supports around 3000 - you claimed in your first posting 9000, and the loses to Australian workers is 18000. The lack of people to find to work in slaughterhouses is not due to aversion to hard work as you suggest but because of the takeover of the live trade which essentially caused the demise in slaughter house operations. This is an issue which has not been adequately addressed by Govt or by industry.

As for you watching fat sheep and cattle walking off the ship at the other end..well you should compare notes with Animals Australia. They witnessed an entirely different scenario in 2004. We refer to the Al Kuwait case which will be in the courts this year.

I also ask you to explain the hundreds of deaths of young cattle in Israel in November -December 2006. They certainly didnt walk off the MV Maysora fat! Many died due to various diseases..caused we understand by conditions exclusive in shipping. These diseases like failure to eat pellets are also ship exclusive. So is sea sickness, and yes sheep suffer sea sickness. In other words these diseases and conditions do not happen on the farm.

What happens to the pregnant sheep? What happens to her baby?  No one can tell us pregnant sheep are not exported. It is difficult to tell if a sheep is pregnant - easier for a vet. No vet inspects 80.000 sheep individually even though they are supposed to be according to the mandatory Export Standards- so tell us what happens to those sheep who give birth on board?

Further the care on farm is suspect- so comparing farm care to ship care is not an appropriate comparison.

You make it sound like sacking a person who was 'caught' for cruelty a major step forward. We suppose it is for the live trade industry- but for animal people cruelty should not happen. But it does: in unbelievable numbers.  How many guilty of cruelty get away with it?  What would happen if the captain didn't care either way?

We must question the motivation and integrity of those in charge.

Also Rocky you have not mentioned the treatment or rather mistreatment these poor creatures receive upon arrival in these foreign countries where animal welfare is unheard of.

Transport for animals is by throwing them into trucks on top of each other- broken legs- who cares they're only sheep! See how the very same attitude permeates EVERY place whereby animals are only considered walking money and food. They dont care about the animals need to be given food and water, to be treated with care and respect...that my friend is unheard of.

The industry considers these animals nothings and they are treated as such. There is not once ounce of kindness extended to any of the creatures on board those floating hell holes of death and absolutely NONE in the Middle East or Asia.

Australia has a reputation amongst the world for its poor animal welfare. Yes the Govt and industry wants all to believe we are the best. They kid only themselves.

The live trade is a curse upon human kind.



Look forward to your reply.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Nicky January 27, 2007, 06:17:39 PM
Hey Rocky
Thank you for contributing, it is good to have debate. I have to point out though that recent studies by the AMIEU (Australasian Meat Industry Employees' Union) put the job LOSSES caused by the live export trade at closer to 40,000 in recent years. That's a lot of people losing their livelihoods, a lot of regional centres shutting down because meat processing was the only, or the major employer, and then the domino effect on other businesses. But I agree with WA Admin here, jobs and economics are not the issues. The fact that you say you are "not supposed to be talking" about certain things is very telling, and symptomatic of the protection from public scrutiny this industry gets from the government (too many politicians are farmers).
The welfare of the animals doomed to this appalling trade in misery and suffering is the major concern for me. Possibly some animals adapt to the shit feed they are forced to eat, and can cope standing in their own excrement for weeks at a stretch - but tens of thousands can't, as the few statistics available indicate. I have watched the loading of some ships, and see no attempt made to conform to the industry's OWN mandatory standards. I have seen sick and injured sheep being taken to the ship, sheep being kicked, and one being thrown from the ramp to the wharf. But none of this compares to what all these animals face in importing countries, at the hands of what I can only describe as savages. Have you seen that? Can you tell us that the material we have seen is wrong? At the end of the day, animals feel hunger, thirst, heat, cold, isolation and loneliness and fear. Prolonging that by subjecting them to all this, for no better reason than the greed of the few, is simply unacceptable. That is just basic, common decency.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: rocky February 01, 2007, 01:22:40 PM
Thanks Nicky and Hero member for your replies.
Both you guys make strong pionts. I would love to have time to sit down and relpy to every thing you asked Hero. But the fact I dont have time.
But I will say this, it is about time the export trade, put they balls on the line, and put a tv camera on to a ship, and showed what realy went on. I do beleave that people would be very surpised to see what realy happens.
So I put to any one out there, if you can find a exporter which is willing to do it, i will be keen to sail on that trip.
Let the trip actions speck for itself. End of the day, it doesnt matter what i say on here, it want change anyones mines.
Now about the Mv Maysora, who is to blame for that, honestly, the exporter is.
Why, a large number of reasons, dont blame the ship or the boat crew or stockman.
Blame the per shipping, the buyers the epxorter.
Iv been a buyer for live export, you get to know as a buyer, what will traval and what doesnt.
What makes a good trip is the per shipping, if every thing is done right on land, the trip should be easy.
Now the epxorter, hope they under for this, the fact is, there is a law saying that no cattle are to be exported out of the southern ports between may and oct, not 100% sure on the datas.
the law is the law, they broke it, and animals did suffer for it. Now all you guys will be thinking whats rocky on about, he has spent the last couple weeks telling us that stock dont suffer, bla bla bla. If i was due to sail on that ship and seen the stock or new where they come from i wouldnt of gone.
I will say couple things, the stockmen which was on board that trip is a close friend of mine, he would of been pist off as well. He is very much like me, very hard worker, been rounld animals all his life, and he would of told the expoter from the start that they fucked up.
Its sad, for the fact, that this export comapny was running there ships at a high stock loss, and my friend helped them and told them on how to impove there ships, which they did, and there ships had some very good resolts.
We have to be fair in saying this, 95% of exports do, do a very good job with what they do, the  other 5% should not be trading.
I would like to say more, but i just dont have the time.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: WA Export News February 10, 2007, 12:43:32 AM
Cheers Rocky.

I am with you on this one- the exporter is to blame- in fact our sources tell us the choice to take Herefords on this trip was a shocking one. But hey he got his export license back from good old AQIS without too much ado! Hes back loading cattle and sheep aboard that shitheap Maysora today in Fremantle WA so I guess for that exporter it was really no big deal.

Our sources also tell us that this particular exporter is not interested in animal welfare- his concern is profit first, profit second, third etc..  Get the picture?

I think the stock men probably get the blame for many ills that befall live export- but then its about time they stood up for what is right and just.

However having said that-no matter how perfect the journey no one can justify the savage treatment these innocent little creatures endure upon arrival and thereafter. Not even you.

Dont agree with your statement on 95% do a good job. The industry is not transparent and accountable therefore it would not be acceptable to say that 95% does a good job. It is essential that animal welfare people board and inspect and travel with every shipment...but what exporter would allow that? What exporter wants the truth to be known about the crap conditions, suffering and deaths?

Further, as inanition (shy feeding) is live export exclusive- in other words sheep do not suffer from failure to eat or shy feeding on the farm. It is only when they get put into a feedlot then onto the ship ands are forced to eat pelleted fodder do they suffer from inanition. Therefore in our minds the very fact exporters knowingly put shy feeder sheep onto a ship - knowing they will suffer in CRUELTY in itself!
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: lotus petal February 15, 2007, 12:17:16 PM
I voted to rebuild the chilled industry.
Although I am 100% vegetarian and do not believe in eating animals at all, it is unrealistic for us to think that we can make everyone give up meat, hence while we must strive to change peoples views we must also try to improve the conditions for those animals that will end up on someones dinner plate. Hence why I think we need to improve the chilled industry, at least this way we know they are not being transported Live to the middle east and treated like a sack of flour, thrown all over the place by their fleece and legs.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Export News Tasmania May 07, 2007, 11:03:20 PM
Hey Rocky
Firstly I would like to thank you for having the courage to contribute to this debate as you have, in the face of what must really feel like hostility. You sound like you do have the welfare of the animals as a major consideration. I knew about the breach of the Standards (cattle sourced from south of 26 degrees latitude south), but as has bern pointed out above, the exporter continues on unscathed and unrepentant.
While things may have improved on SOME of the ships (have you read our document "A Disaster by Another Name"?), another thing which has been pointed out above is the appalling cruelty these animals face in destination countries. I would love you to tell us more of your experiences; which ships you have travelled on, and what YOU have observed in these countries. It is all very well to say that the trade is "improving", but Nigel Brown, MLA's OWN veterinarian, was quoted extensively in Middle Eastern newspapers saying that it is just fine to hog-tie sheep and throw them in the boots of cars ("it makes them feel safe", he said, see this website). He further said that it is usual practice in Australia a nd Europe. This is the man to whom the welfare of Australian animals is entrusted.
Can you tell us the material we have seen is wrong? Inaccurate? If not, we are back at the start of the discussion. As Animals Australia says - this isn't about animal rights, it is about animal wrongs.
Regards
Catherine
Live Export Shame Tasmania
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Export News Tasmania June 25, 2007, 10:51:22 PM
Hey Rocky
The "Maysora" incident is one of a long line of many, the details of most of which we do not find out about, as has been pointed out above, because this industry is protected by "commercial in confidence" provisions by the Federal government. The reason for that is that so many politicians are farmers.
The last shipment from Tasmania (that we know of, we suspect that animals are being shipped out of the state, transported to Portland, then being exported from there) was on the "Al Messilah" in February 2006. 1,632 sheep starved to death on a marathon 27 day voyage to four destination ports. That is how WE count the suffering and the death toll. The cattle on the "Maysora" were sent with forged documents, and the detail is that cattle bred south of the 26 degree parallel south should not be exported between May and October. We sent letters to several politicians and most of AQIS - and got not one response. Those cattle were sent ILLEGALLY, yet the exporter still has the licence to do it all again.
Those are just the stuff-ups BEFORE the hapless animals are handed over to the tender mercies of the importing countries, and this is what we would like you to tell us more about.
Bear with us - we are trying to keep our knowledge current and relevant.
Catherine
Live Export Shame Tasmania
 
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Scooter October 14, 2008, 10:34:54 AM
Hello Rocky,comendable of you to post. However, I would strongly suggest you are not objective when it comes to the trade, as you are deriving income from it, therefore will be a wee bit blind to it's fundamentally illogical existence.The live exporters, Government and farmers are turning Aust into a paddock! No value adding, no future sustainability, just quick dollars...tell me Rocky, what bargaining power will the employees of the industry and the farmers have when our slaughterhouses become a thing of the past due to their inability to compete with the tax free , overhead free, live exporters? I doubt the exporters will still pay a premium price then...what do you think?Live exports are anti-competetive, and have no doubt shut down the meat processing sector in Australia to a large degree...look at the facts, the jobs in Aust processing went down in direct relation to the rise in live exports- fact.Aside from the cruelty, immorality and all the other arguments already shown to you on this forum, the trade does not make sense! This was pointed out in 1985, when a Bi-Partisan Senate committee declared the trade should be phased out in favour of a chilled carcass industry. 1985 Rocky....read the Senate report...it describes cruelty that could easily narrate todays footage of the horrors our animals are subject to in the Middle East as we speak. Animal Welfare improvements? Where Rocky? Treatment they recieve would be illegal here Rocky, no argument, we are outsourcing slaughter and with it a shameful, evil disregard and cruelty that would be prosecuted here.People in other countries don't believe the spin Rocky...and trust me, when I was in the UK and the US last year...the people there are apalled and disgusted with the cruelty of the trade...a cruelty they associate with Australia, and Australians. It is damaging the wool industry, and the reputation of Australia and Australians in general...Ultimately the farmers of this nation will get a wake up call.....and frankly Rocky it can't come soon enough for my liking...I'm sick of my hard earned tax dollars propping up cruelty, profiteering and incompetence. How fortunate you are Rocky to have a choice as to your participation in this vile industry...sadly a luxury the animals do not have.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: WA Export News October 14, 2008, 07:21:19 PM
Scooter- you are a real gem!
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Export News Tasmania January 31, 2009, 07:05:25 PM
Hi Rocky
Can you tell us please what you have seen in importing countries, once you have unloaded (and therefore are no longer responsible for) the pitiful "cargo"?
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: jocy June 10, 2009, 04:22:16 PM
 I support this letter: " Australia should discontinue the Live Animal Export trade to other countries on ethical and compassionate grounds alone.
However, discontinuing the Live Animal Export trade would also benefit Australian abattoirs; many Australian abattoirs have 'Halal' certification and would welcome the chance to re-build the chilled carcass trade that has been decimated by the Live Animal Export trade. It would also restore many other rural jobs that have been lost; approximately twice as many jobs have disappeared from closed Australian abattoirs and associated business' as have supposedly been 'created' by the live export industry".

I also support : "We all know that the live exporting farmers had no worries about the disappearing local processing sector, or the jobs of meatworkers as long as they got a few extra dollars per head for animals. We know too that they are excellent at turning a blind eye to the shocking cruelty the animals they send face. Now, they have been caught by the drought, and there is insufficient processing capacity. What goes around comes around! Don't throw them any more handouts, because this proves that they cannot manage their businesses like everyone else has to."

I am against any live-animal-export and I condemn those, who are pro.  :angry:
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Export News Tasmania June 10, 2009, 07:19:59 PM
Jocy, thanks for that excellent letter, The Australasian Meat Industry Employees Union puts the figure of jobs lost as a result of the live export trade at 40,000. The industry claims it supports 13,0000 jobs - but it includes in that figure doctors, dentists, hospitality, banking and insurance workers (amongst others) whose jobs would clearly remain if the trade in live animals ceased. The real figure is probably more like 3,000. Please, send your letter to the relevant State and Federal politicians!
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: borga April 23, 2011, 04:21:41 PM
As a vegan, I hate anything to do with the meat trade, skin trade etc,etc,....however, as this whole export issue is never going to go away,  I would rather see our livestock stay on Australian soil, be slaughtered in Australian slaughter-houses than endure the living hell they face as soon as board those ships of evil.  On the flipside, and I know I wont be popular for saying this, but, the jobs that have been lost by Australian meat workers, will most likely be picked up again. Once again, I would rather see our livestock be handled by Australians than face mutiliation and torment by those in other countries where animal cruelty laws are non existent.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: WA Export News April 23, 2011, 05:12:34 PM
Well said borga.

Part of the issue is that farmers demand to have a choice of markets to which they can sell the animals and make their money. Frankly, it is clear they dont give a toss about the suffering their animals endure and this makes it difficult to inject the concept of 'human decency' into the debate.

If farmers did care, they would refuse to send their animals on what can only be described as a nightmare journey.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Magda June 06, 2011, 10:21:36 AM
Hey Rocky, Why don't you view film and video regarding the subject of live export and the abuse, torture and slow deaths  to animals in the flesh trading you obviously support? If you're only half brained you would see this shouldn't happen. I say you have an absence of reason.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: tankgirl June 13, 2011, 03:12:35 PM
As the daughter of a farmer, who no longer lives on the farm because it is just so damned hard to make a living these days, I am appalled that some of you think the farmers of Australia do not consider animal welfare or sustainability and only care about a quick dollar. Let me tell you..  there are no 'quick dollars' in the farming industry. I would like to make a number of points:

Farmers are driven by sustainability. Unlike many people who no nothing of the land, many farmers understand that in order to get the best from their animals, they must look after them. They must also look after their land.  Their future livelihood, and I mean livelihood, not profits, because many farmers live hand to mouth, depends on their stewardship of the land.

Farming is a highly regulated industry. There are rules about the chemicals, (if any) that they use, there are rules about how they must maintain the land, if and how they can clear trees to put in fences and dams, there are rules about how they truck cattle, there are rules about the protection of waterways. In Queensland the State Government has recently brought in more rules about the sustainability of farms, because they blame farmers for the deterioration of the Great Barrier Reef. There are many other regulations that I am not even aware of because I no longer work on my family's farm. Farmers are suffering from regulation fatigue and that is why many of them have given up speaking out, and you will not hear the voices of the majority of farmers on this issue. They are tired, and they are busy tending to their animals and their farms.

Farmers love their animals, if you didn't love them, you could never live that lifestyle.  Farming requires so much hard work and heartache. Animals require so much hard work to thrive and in times of drought, or flood, so much more work just to survive. Farmers donít go home at 5:00pm, kick back and forget about it all. When you work on a farm, you live it, itís your everything. Animals need food and water, they need inoculating for illnesses and diseases, treating for ticks and flies, when you are not doing that, you are repairing fences, equipment and yards, maintaining waterways, caring for the land, eradicating pest weeds, and feral animals. So donít think that after all that hard work, farmers like seeing their animals treated badly.  Moreover, it is sickening for myself and many people I know from farms, to see animals treated badly, this includes, cows, sheep, dogs, cats, and our native animals.

Farmers have a limited market for their produce. Abattoirs in Australia were very nearly a monopoly industry before the live export trade started up. My family sold and still sells their cattle to our local abattoir, however the only other market available to them prior to the live export trade was the sale yards, where eventually they end up at an abattoir anyway. Many cattle that are sold to the live export trade are unsuitable for our fussy Australian palette. We donít like eating the tough beef from northern Australia. And many cattle sold to the live export trade are smaller and lighter than the abattoirsí will accept. The live export trade provides farmers with an additional market place where they can derive some income from. This is not to say we do not need to support our own abattoirs, however, without the live export trade, many farmers will be captive to the abattoirs once again and without any bargaining power. Without competition, our abattoirs will become a near monopoly industry again.

Many people eat meat. I see many of you dedicated vegetarians complaining about this, however, like it or not, meat is a source of protein for billions of people. Unfortunately, to eat meat, an animal must be slaughtered. Itís not like picking broccoli or lettuce, where you snap of leaves and you see no effects. Itís yukky, and its messy and its bloody, and can be very distressing for the slaughterer. There is nothing nice about killing something, no matter how humanely you do it. Personally, I think that you should know how your food gets on your plate, if you eat meat, of any sort, beef, pork, chicken, fish, you need to understand that an animal must die. Our society is very removed from the realities of where our food and consumables come from.

What we saw on the TV was very selective. In many cases, only a small percentage of cattle ARE treated like that, which is still wrong, but I have been told, by people in the industry, that we were only shown the horror.

Scooter, I would suggest to people like yourself, who are concerned for the welfare of the cattle, to stop reading Senate reports. We all know the Government is out of touch with the realities of the industry. If you really want to make a difference and if you are so passionate about the welfare of the animals, get yourself a job on a farm. Learn about the industry. Get yourself a job on a live export boat, teach others to treat our animals with the dignity they deserve. Go work in an abattoir both in Australia and in Indonesia. Find out how to slaughter our animals in a cruelty free manner. Stopping the live export trade is not the answer as it destroys economyís, livelihoods, and will reduce many people and animals in both Australia and Indonesia to starvation. Getting people like yourself, who care about animal welfare, involved, is the answer.  If you are that passionate and you really care about our animals, instead of name calling and complaining, protesting and jumping up and down, become actively and constructively involved in the industry, become a farmer, or a meat worker, or get involved in the live export trade. Make a difference by being constructive.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: WA Export News June 13, 2011, 03:36:12 PM
Thanks for you views tankgirl.

In order to make claims believable one needs to substiante the claims. If you want to make statements such as "What we saw on the TV was very selective. In many cases, only a small percentage of cattle ARE treated like that, which is still wrong, but I have been told, by people in the industry, that we were only shown the horror.", then you should be able to substantiate it.

Were you at every slaughter?  No. You are simply regurgitating what the industry says. Havent they led all a merry dance about what really goes in in Indonesia? Why the hell would you believe what the industry had to say for goodness sake when they have not been totally up front.

And you suggest that all farmers care about their animals. So you are on every farm all of the time?

No didnt think so. Take a trip to a saleyard and see the animals so called 'caring farmers' send in for sale. Animals that cannot even stand up.


We appreciate your contribution but those involved within this industry have every reaponsibility and duty of care to ensure that NO animal endures what our Australian animals endured.
 
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: born_for_freedom June 13, 2011, 03:56:15 PM
Hey tank girl. Most people work bloody hard in their job..so why should an animal farmer expect special attention?

Have a read of the words you use because they say a lot about how someone really feels. You say 'produce'. Since when is are live sentient beings 'produce'?

Since when are live sentient beings 'stock'. Stock is what goes onto the shelf at the supermarket.

I realise you think you understand animal welfare, but really one must be objective in order to understand good welfare and I do not for one minute believe you can be.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Export News Tasmania June 13, 2011, 07:53:11 PM
It is sad indeed when farmers believe the propaganda touted by the live export trade. Seven investigations in the Middle East, and now this one in Indonesia, cannot all be wrong. The inherent problem is evidenced by your terminology, tankgirl - 'stock' and 'produce' are terms that should never be applied to animals, who feel hunger, thirst, fear, pain, and lonelieness. MLA's response is 'we need to do more training'. They only ever considered training at all because they were exposed for the liars they are about 'improving animal welfare' in these Godforsaken countries (you only have to consider what they do to their women, for God's sake). Many of us survive and live healthy lives without killing and exploiting these sentient creatures. And no-one cared when 40,000 meat workers lost THEIR livelihoods when you people got greedy and got into this evil trade three decades or more ago. And let's get this straight ... these embodiments of greed and animal abuse now want COMPENSATION from the taxpayers (as if we haven't propped them up for long enough) AND they want their animal abuse back? And we should trust you people that you could ever get it right? We think not.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: bulya June 13, 2011, 10:41:04 PM
Banning the live export has and will do nothing for animal and human welfare issues in Indonesia, all has done is created a animal and human welfare issues in Australia.
Why don't we ban all trade with China as they do not have the Australian work, Health and safety standards.
Ban trade with Japan they are hunting the whales again.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: WA Export News June 13, 2011, 10:46:21 PM
Bulya. You miss the point. The issue of live export is not about humans. It is about cruelty and suffering to Australian animals. And Australian animals suffer in the Middle East and in Indonesia.

It must be noted that the live export trade has destroyed over 40000 jobs within the slaughter industry here in AU.

Australia does not need live export.

: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: tankgirl June 14, 2011, 10:10:17 PM
It is dissapointing that you do not investigate this matter futher and are happy to accept the propaganda you saw on the television as the truth and the only truth and continue to regurgitate the misinformation.

No I cannot be at every kill, like many of you I have a full time job in the city. However, I have seen animals slaughtered because I believe if you eat meat, you must understand how it gets to your table. Many of you would have never seen a cow, a horse or a chicken, let alone seen how it gets to your table. This is part of the problem. 

Yes I believe the farmers, I've been one. No, not all are caring and respectful of their animals, but neither are all city people caring and respectful of their cats, and dogs.

To those of you offended by the words "stock" and "produce", here's a history lesson. Cattle have been domesticated for many thousands of years. And as heartless as this might sound to you they were domesticated so that people could eat them. And without protein from meat, we would not be human, our brains would not have developed to what we now have. We would still be in trees.

And as for the slaughter industry here If you want in Australia, the abbatoirs in Townsville cannot handle the meat they are processing, their chillers cannot cool it fast enough and their are massive backlogs of cattle booked in to be slaughtered, that they keep deferring.

And what are you doing about the animals stuck in yards, stuck on trucks, who were destined for live export but are now in limbo. Are you even aware of thier existence? Do you care for their welfare? What becomes of them now?

This link has some letters from real farmers, people who have been effected and who care about their animals - http://justgroundsonline.com/forum/topics/my-story-the-ripple-effect
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Export News Tasmania June 15, 2011, 12:17:50 AM
How many investigations, showing the same atrocities, do there need to be? Having spent years around saleyards watching ill, crippled and dying animals transported there, sold, and transported onwards regardless of their pain and suffering (and I have prosecuted them, in one instance for starving 35 sheep for 9 days), it is something of a leap to expect us to believe that farmers or indeed any of these animal 'industries' 'care' for their animals. Daily we see four deck transporters packed so tighly with animals you can clearly see that they are thrown on top of one another.
You only have to read one of the latest posts quoting a goat 'producer' (I thought animals themselves were the producers, but I guess that's semantic) who says he 'doesn't know'; how the animals he exports are killed. And for those who didn't know, that's the way they like it. The most culpable entity in this, Meat and Livestock Australia, will now have to provide for the animals saved from the Indonesian fate. And information from the Australasian Meat Industry Employees Union directly contradicts your assertions.
You people claim to be 'in business'. Other businesses in this country have to operate within ethical and moral stanards and in compliance with a multiplicity of regulations and government policies and have to deal with changes in those policies. Why is it that farmers think they are different? They have their hands out when there's drought, and they have their hands out when it rains. And we taxpayers are continually bailing them out. Other businesses are left to fold, without constant government handouts. Enough. This trade has got away with far too much for FAR TOO LONG, now it will end. Deal with it. We manage to live healthy, productive lives without exploiting animals. We have some chickens who lived lives of hell on battery farms who are here for the rest of their lives. And my brain got me through two post-graduate degrees without meat.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: WA Export News June 15, 2011, 02:15:05 AM
We will address each point as follows:

The expose seen on 4 Corners was in part gathered by Animals Australia. Their evidence of atrocities upon our cattle was presented, investigated and substantiated by 4 Corners...a totally independent media source. Given what we all saw, and accept- including the vast majority of industry who fully agreed it as being blatant and brutal torture, it is down right stupid to even contemplate suggesting it is propaganda.

MLA and we are led to believe LiveCorp have to our knowledge admitted that they knew..and they failed to stop it. If that is not an indictment upon what this industry stands for...well what is?


If indeed you are not at every kill, then you cannot say that suffering does not occur. 4 Corners visited a number of slaughterhouses in Indonesia - probably more than you have. It is then reasonable to accept that they have a hell of a lot more experience than you. It is also condescending to infer that many who read this forum have not seen a cow, a horse or a chicken. That statement is ridiculous to say the least. We are all to aware of exactly how these creatures are treated, transported and slaughtered in order to be served on a plate. However, what happens to animals in Aust isn't the issue- it is the horrific treatment of our cattle in Indonesia that is the focus.

You say you believe farmers, and dare we say it, that is the problem. There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see. If you refuse to see the cruelty and suffering of the cattle then you have no business being involved in farming. Might we add that given your industry mates accept the 4 Corners footage as gross cruelty, you would be in a minute minority for refusing to accept its validity.  Be sure to understand we have our eyes wide open to the realities of live export.

The offence caused by the words "stock" and "produce" is because the animals are sentient beings. Your retort failed to address this point. In the context of this discussion, it is irrelevant how long these creatures have been exploited by humans. What is relevant is the use of these words and the story they tell- one of indifference to the animal. It is that culture of indifference which permeates the whole of the industry. And the culture of indifference results in people not seeing the suffering for what it is. Unacceptable

The live export trade has all but destroyed the Australian slaughter industry. Over 40000 jobs have been lost- ask the meat workers union who also oppose live export. If the farming industry had not been so keen to grab every cent from every animal- fit or not, and had they supported our slaughter industry then perhaps the cattle would not have had to ensure such horrendous suffering. But that for a farmer is irrelevant. We read this all the time in articles online The bottom line for the industry is $$.  What always matters is the $$.

It is clear the industry because of the continual mismanagement of the handling of animals overseas, their inability to tell fact from fiction and their ability to turn a blind eye to cruelty are to blame for this travesty. Solving the probelm they have created is not the responsibility of the rest of Australia.  We are telling people like you that what happens to our sheep, goats and cattle is totally unacceptable.

The animals in both Broome and Darwin will not be on trucks- or at least should not be- especially if the industry cares about their welfare. And if they still are, then more proof the industry doesn't give a shit. The animal welfare law is clear in WA..and they industry should bear that in mind.

Our sources tell us the cattle are for the most part still in the feedlots.

If a person wishes to latch onto a business because trade is prosperous, they must also ensure they take precautions to insulate themselves when times get tough.

Farmers always have a hand out for a freebie- and the freebie is always supplied- unwillingly by the city person.  It is not my responsibility to support a businessperson when the tough times roll along. Perhaps if the pastoralists weren't so greedy and stopped breeding so many animals they wouldn't be in this position.

We strongly suggest you take off the rose coloured glasses and see the trade for what it causes. No matter you want to believe; what the industry tells you- the proof is in the footage shown on 4 Corners. The world has seen it..and Australia looks to be the cruel nation it is..all thanks to Australian live trade.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: WA Export News June 15, 2011, 02:21:54 AM
By the way, if you want to learn about propaganda, then we suggest you look to your own industry.

They are absolute masters at their chosen art.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: tankgirl June 15, 2011, 10:17:34 PM
My concern regarding this program being propaganda, is that it did not provide a balanced view and focused solely on the horror. If it had truly wanted to understand the situation, it would have provided for all sides of the story.

I think you will find if you investigate this further, that although MLA and LiveCorp did receive a report, the general industry, thecattle producers, were not each issued with a copy of this report, and because the majority of them, do not travel with each load to see them slaughtered, were unaware. Many producers are outraged buy the cruelty, and I have previously stated that I find it sickening to see animals mistreated.

I have never said that suffering did not occur, however I am saying that perhaps we have not been shown all there is to know. I am pleased that you have indeed seen animals, I made this statement because many on this forum seem to think that farmers are as a whole, cruel and nasty to their animals and this is concerning and shows a general ignorance of many (but perhaps not all) people who raise animals. I grew up on a farm and must admit that I rarely saw animals mistreated, this includes those that were ultimately for food.

I understand that cows are sentient beings. This is not something I would dispute. However, I find this difficult to explain to someone not ready to accept another point of view, and convinced that all farmers are heartless and mistreat animals. When farmers talk of producing, this means they grow food, be it lettuce, beans, cows or sheep. They tend the lettuce, beans, cows or sheep, they provide nutrients and water so they grow. They treat them for pests, diseases and illnesses. Many farmers practice selective breeding, choosing to replant seeds from the beans that grow the biggest best beans, choosing to breed from the cows that bear the healthiest calves that grow into the best animals. When farmers talk of producing this is what they mean. For a  farmer, beans, cattle, sheep or lettuce are what that they grow that earns them money. In your local plant nursery plants that the nursery operator has grown and are sitting on the shelves growing bigger while waiting to be sold would be referred to as stock. This is in effect and accounting term. The use of these words does not show an indifference to the animalsí treatment. In fact, the farmer has put a lot of effort into treating the animal well so that it grows into a fine animal.  It is a reference to the fact that the farmer is in a business and that business produces something, and the something that is held prior to being sold is the stock. However, if you really, truly believe it is indifference, then perhaps you really do need to go and spend some time with farmers. Perhaps you too could try doing this with an open mind.

I am fail to understand why the loss of jobs in the Australian abattoirs is more important than the loss of farmers. Yes, it is terrible when someone loses their livelihood. Itís devastating when you lose you job, I think most of us have experienced it. But why are we concerned about the jobs of meat workers, over the jobs of farmers? I see no difference in $$ís for meat workers and $$ís for farmers. Are they not all equal? Without the farmers, there will be no jobs for any meat workers. I never understand why meat workers stand against farmers, it is like people in the hospitality industry protesting against serving customers.

Hopefully the cattle are in feedlots, and not on the trucks, however if they remain for a few more weeks, I believe they will have grown too big to be sold as live export, Indonesia only takes animals of a certain size, and they will be too small to be sold to our abattoirs. What becomes of these animals then? 

In my experience, farmers do not get many freebies. We are not living the USA or the EU where farmers are heavily subsidized and treated as an endangered species. Despite your suggestion otherwise, farmers in Australia battle with drought and floods, things that they have no control over and things that do not affect many city based businesses. When was the last time you supported a farmer?

This is not about supporting a businessperson in tough times. This is about taking a market away without proper and complete consultation and reducing an industry to chaos. Its not just the farmers who are affected, itís the welfare of the animals both on the farm and waiting for export, trucking companies and their employees, the indigenous workers, their families, helicopter pilots, livestock suppliers, farm machinery businesses, boarding schools, small rural towns and many more.  The government had a knee jerk reaction to pressure and my understanding is that they did not fully investigate the matter, did not consult with states, the export industry, the farmers or the Indonesians. I also believe that the world generally, does not view Australia as cruel, but it certainly views the practices of the abattoirs in the 4 Corners footage as cruel, and the Australian governments reaction to this as poorly handled.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Export News Tasmania June 15, 2011, 11:09:41 PM
Tankgirl, while we appreciate your input, we make the point that now this industry has its hand out to the taxpayer yet again because it cannot deal with a change in government policy. Most of the people you cite here have jobs which would continue without the export factor.

The meat industry received no handouts when you started this trade, no labour market adjustment, yet the farmers expect compensation - AND they want their disgusting trade back - even after what they cannot fail to have seen in countless investigations in all importing countries. Does that not tell you something?

The meat workers receeived nothing except unemployment. Satellite businesses in towns where meat processing was the only, or the major industry and employer, were further casualties, and also received no handouts. So we fail to see why people who have made fortunes in animal abuse over decades, using a massive proportion of OUR tax dollars, should expect to be treated differently.

As for all farmers being cruel, no-one has said any such thing, Farmers who knowingly expose their animals to this cruelty, however, which we have seen too many times for it to be remotely considered 'isolated incidents' are entirely another matter. Perhaps you should look for the document at this site 'A disaster by any other name'. It outlines exactly the sort of ships used in this trade, the vast majority being about 30 years old and former oil tankers, vehicle trainsporters and the like. There are very few 'new', 'purpose built' vessels in this trade, and all are registered in flag of convenience ports where standards are considerably lower, and manned by third world crews. That is why animals die on them.

Australian maritime workers sre not employed on these ships.

The animals who survive the journeys are the really umfortunate ones though. They are handed over to savages who, as shown in multiple lots of footage we have seen, clearly enjoy torturing them. Farmers who send them cannot fail to know this, and if they claim otherwise, they are at best disingenuous and at worst negligent. Please don't tell us they 'care for their animals'.

They only care about how fast they can get them back into the hellholes that are the importing countries as soon as possible. The way the people in these countries treat each other, particularly women, is a salutory lesson - yet still Australia sends them defenceless animals. If anyone has failed the farming sector, it is your own Meat and Livestock Australia, and it is MLA that you should be blaming for what you apparently believe is a crisis, not decent Australians who are disgusted, outraged and ashamed to be Australian because of this industry.
: Re: Poll on Australian Live Animal Export
: Magda December 18, 2011, 10:00:44 AM
Hey Daughter of a farmer who doesn't farm any more. You are a hypocrite. How can you say you love animals when you subject them to the ghastly and always long, torturous and tedious death? Distressing for the "Slaughterer" Have you ever met any of these individuals? Most abattoirs in Australia murder in halal style and all death houses have no respect for their terrified victim. You call yourself a "farmer"? The correct title should be "Flesh Trader". I have been a Vegetarian then Vegan for over fifty years and get my source of protein from nonviolent sources. Work hard as a farmer? Try making your living in the city particularly with very little study as most farmers have. You look after your animals to make money from them, not because you love them. How dare you use the word love? In the words of a decent and humane person "The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men."
ó Leonardo da Vinci